JeffCroft.com

11.16.2005 // 44 Comments // KSU Foundation Center Modern Web Design in Higher Ed

Comments

1. 001 // Ben // 11.16.2005 // 3:34 PM

   I think you are mistaken - the largest uptake in web standards in my generation, (24, working for a couple of years in the industry) is from computer scientists - I studied that as my degree and have a foundation of programming combined with business.

   My company contains three other programmers who work fully with xhtml/css/js - the languages are programmatic and good programming practice translates well to them, especially in the creation of well structured and well designed mark up - a number of the advances the industry has made in the past few years have been based on sound programming prinicples from other areas of IT.

   What we need to get more educated web professionals is recognition of the industry as a fundamental area of IT in the same way as traditional software engineering, database design etc are seen now.

2. 002 // Jeff Croft // 11.16.2005 // 4:34 PM

   I think you are mistaken - the largest uptake in web standards in my generation, (24, working for a couple of years in the industry) is from computer scientists - I studied that as my degree and have a foundation of programming combined with business.

   Where did you study? Like I said, I know of a number of school that teach web design, but don’t teach modern methods. I’d be interested to learn what school taught you XHTML, CSS, Javascript, standards, DOM, etc.

   Also, if you studied computer science, don’t you feel as though you are missing essential elements of front-end design — like maybe graphic design, typography, animation, HCI, etc? Of course, you may have studied these on your own, but they weren’t include din your CS degree, were they?

   My company contains three other programmers who work fully with xhtml/css/js - the languages are programmatic and good programming practice translates well to them, especially in the creation of well structured and well designed mark up - a number of the advances the industry has made in the past few years have been based on sound programming prinicples from other areas of IT.

   Okay, but those are programmers. What about your designers? Your copywriters? Your multimedia producers? Your usability engineers? Your accessibility gurus? Are they all up on the latest trends in web design and devlopment?

   Perhaps my title, referencing standards, was misleading. I’m not referring only to web standards in the sense of XHTML, CSS, and DOM — I’m talking about schools not teaching modern methodologies for the web.

   To give another example: in a recent search committee I participated on, we got a ton of applicants with masters degrees in HCI. However, almost none of the had any web experience. Who is teaching HCI for today’s web? Who is teaching graphic design for today’s web? Who is teaching typography for today’s web? Who is teaching programming for today’s web (apparently your school, at least)? Who is teaching copywriting for the web?

   What we need to get more educated web professionals is recognition of the industry as a fundamental area of IT in the same way as traditional software engineering, database design etc are seen now.

   You think that front-end web design is an area of IT? I’m not sure I agree. Part of it is (the markup, the scripting, etc.), but part of it is purely creative, another part is all about marketing, another part is about psychology.

   That was sort of my point — web design is not an IT function alone, and therefore can’t be taught by the CIS department alone — at least not taught well, in my opinion.

   Thanks for your comments — I think I’ll change my title to be more clear. :)

3. 003 // Brian Ford // 11.16.2005 // 4:53 PM

   Good luck getting typography taught for the web. Typography is rarely taught even for Graphic Design.

   I think that schools just need to institute an actual web design program that isn’t necessarily part of a graphic design program. Or, at least.. at some point students should split off into either Graphic Design or Web Design. (Say, as Juniors.)

   The big problem I see is that many Universities simply aren’t willing to distinguish between “types” of Design. I’m sure the big Design schools, RISD for example… probably are better about this. The fact of the matter is that most of us don’t go to the RISDs… we go to the UMKCs.

   As undergraduates, there just isn’t time to have a focus that is as wide as your bulleted list hopes for. I’d say that with 2 years of Graduate study you’d be likelier to get there.

4. 004 // Jeff Croft // 11.16.2005 // 5:07 PM

   I think that schools just need to institute an actual web design program that isn’t necessarily part of a graphic design program…

   …or a computer science program. Or an HCI program. Etcetra. This is exactly my point. There is no web design track offered at most school, so students take something vaguely similar, like graphic design or computer programming, and call it good. But it’s not good. It’s not the same thing, and these people often end up knowing so very little about actual modern web design.

   As undergraduates, there just isn’t time to have a focus that is as wide as your bulleted list hopes for. I’d say that with 2 years of Graduate study you’d be likelier to get there.

   Perhaps not. But, many degree programs offer areas of emphasis. For example, I was a music major, but my focuses were on jazz and education. I got a well-rounded music education, but I took specific classes for music ed. and jazz. It could easily work the same way here. I could be a “Web Design major, with a visual design emphasis.” Or maybe, “Web Design major, programming emphasis”.

   Either that, or just give them a well-rounded overview of all the areas as undergrads and let them pick an emphasis as a graduate.

5. 005 // Kris Richardson // 11.16.2005 // 5:35 PM

   I think one of the reasons you don’t see specific web design major/minor programs is that the web changes so fast. Just imagine how worthless a web design degree from 10 years ago would be today, unless of course that person kept current with trends and continuously educated his or herself. Computer Science would give someone interested in web programming a good foundation for years to come. Graphic Design would give someone more intersted in web design a good foundation for years to come regardless of what happens in the future. When you’re paying tens of thousands of dollars on an education, I think it’s best that it’s not focused on a specific area like web design. There really is no major where you’re not going to have to do some on the job learning after graduation.

6. 006 // Jeff Croft // 11.16.2005 // 5:50 PM

   I think one of the reasons you don’t see specific web design major/minor programs is that the web changes so fast. Just imagine how worthless a web design degree from 10 years ago would be today, unless of course that person kept current with trends and continuously educated his or herself.

   It’s a good point, but is the solution to the problem of the web changing quickly really to just not bother with it? I don’t think so.

   One possible solution is for a sanctioned organization (say, the W3C) to offer certifications, much in the same way that Cisco and Microsoft do. That way, I can go apply for a job and say, “yes, it was 15 years ago when I went to school, but I’ve had my certification renewed just last year.”

   Computer Science would give someone interested in web programming a good foundation for years to come. Graphic Design would give someone more intersted in web design a good foundation for years to come regardless of what happens in the future.

   Really? You think? I’m not so sure.

   Most of the programmers I know don’t have much of a foundation for the modern web. They know all about C and C++, but they look at me dumbfounded when I ask them what their experience is with Ruby or Python or SOAP or XSLT or…you get the point.

   I spend a good bit of time working with graphic designers in my current job. They, by and large, are clueless when it comes to the web. They don’t understand why the page changes when someone resizes their browser. They present a design and I say, “okay, well what happens here when someone changes their font size — a bigger font isn’t going to fit in that box.” Their response, “Umm, why would someone change their font size. Can’t you just not allow them to do that?” They don’t understand why I can’t use the hottest new font from Emigre for body text. They may have a great design sense, but they’ve a clue how to apply it on the web.

   When you’re paying tens of thousands of dollars on an education, I think it’s best that it’s not focused on a specific area like web design.

   I dunno. How specific is web design? I think of web design as an overall field with lots of specialties underneath it. I see your point — I’m all for well-rounded programs and not overly-specific tracks — but I’m not sure web design qualifies as “overly specific.”

   There really is no major where you’re not going to have to do some on the job learning after graduation.

   Absolutely. But, for some reason, bosses don’t seem to require this for web professionals. Every single web job I’ve had since 1996 has positioned me directly across the room from someone who hasn’t learned a damn thing since the first HTML book they read. And, for most bosses, this is just fine.

   Another major problem is the company web site, especially in smaller companies, is often thrust onto someone entirely inappropriate, like the secretary or the system administrator. This problem stems for the common misconception that anyone with Frontpage can build the next Amazon.com. It’s absurd that conversations like this happen, but they do:

   “Boss, we need a web site.”

   “Oh yeah. Good idea. I was at Best Buy and they had a program called Web Maker. It’s $59. Here’s the company credit card. Go buy it, install it on Rose’s computer, and tell her to make us a web page.”

   “Sure thing, boss.”

   sigh

7. 007 // Hauke Rehfeld // 11.16.2005 // 5:55 PM

   Hm, I’m studying computational visualistics at uni koblenz (GER), and although it’s pretty similar to normal computer science ( real programming ;)), we have several art, OpenGl & photoshop-/gimp-programming, software ergonomics, etc. lessons, which cover the majority of those qualifications you mention.

   Also, what’d been the point to teach say.. correct html 3.0 a few years ago, when students would be finished now?

   The technical side of web standards is changing and can be learned so fast that it just doesn’t make any sense teaching it. Also, it doesn’t represent any kind of language group, like e.g. java does for OO procedural languages - learn java and get (higher concepts) of c++, php, delphi for free. learn lisp and you got the grasp on most functional ones.

8. 008 // Hauke Rehfeld // 11.16.2005 // 6:02 PM

   Also, I just had serious problems posting using Opera 8.5 both with cookies dis-/enabled. So serious I sure had stopped trying if i hadn’t had it all typed up already. Also, im now too lazy to copy my name and my adress to the contact form again (even tho i checked the ‘remember me’ radio button in ff), so I redirect the work to you. sorry.

   On a further note, (at least) your preview jscript should htmlescape everything between < > that’s not a valid tag. Then i had written < remember me > above…

9. 009 // Jeff Croft // 11.16.2005 // 6:02 PM

   Hm, I’m studying computational visualistics at uni koblenz (GER), and although it’s pretty similar to normal computer science ( real programming ;)), we have several art, OpenGl & photoshop-/gimp-programming, software ergonomics, etc. lessons, which cover the majority of those qualifications you mention.

   That’s great! I sure wish there were more programs like that!

   The technical side of web standards is changing and can be learned so fast that it just doesn’t make any sense teaching it.

   Then perhaps you can explain why 80% of employed web professionals DON’T know how to write valid XHTML, don’t know the ins and outs of CSS, don’t know how to manipulate the DOM with Javascript, haven’t ever heard of Ruby on Rails, don’t know how to do XSLT transformations, don’t know anything about SOAP, etc. I think you’re sorely mistaken here. If these things were so damn simple, everyone would know them — right? But they don’t. How do you explain it?

10. 010 // Jeff Croft // 11.16.2005 // 6:05 PM

    Hauke-

    Thanks for your expert analysis of my site. I’ll be sure to take your not-so-pointed criticism under quick consideration. I would consider pointing out how pathetic your site works in Safari, but then, that would just be asshole-ish of me.

    rolls eyes

    Some people will always just be nothing more than haters.

11. 011 // Hauke Rehfeld // 11.16.2005 // 6:23 PM

    meh - i didnt want to hate - it just bothered me a lot, esp. as this is a discussion bout webstandards ( & usability). Also, if you value feedback so much I think you won’t get any further feedback (or opinions for that matter) from me. In addition I personally am happy about bug reports - just that the current buggy, abandoned wordpress installation you looked at ( which i use to save rather personal info now ;)) just doesn’t deserve any. I’ll interpret your complaint as “don’t post that url in a website box again until its fixed” tho, and will do just that. [Monthy Python voice] “And now:” back to my original, already typed post:

    Wow, fast answer :)

    why 80% of employed web professionals DON’T know how to write valid XHTML […]

    How many bad programmers are there? how many bad artists, designers, managers, photographers etc. ? I think the answer is that in webdesign

    it’s much more obvious if something isn’t done right (as opposed to a program that does work until you run into a bug) everyone can do a website that is immediately published

    My (wild) guess would be that there are almost as many bad webdesigners as there are bad -insert profession here-, just that we notice it more.

12. 012 // Dustin Diaz // 11.16.2005 // 6:28 PM

    I’m with Jeff here. They just don’t offer these services to students in very many higher level education institutions.

    Not to mention, anyone who is well-spoken in the industry, isn’t teaching at a University, they’re most likely blogging about it… so that’s where we go. In a way, we are constantly in school learning something new every other day.

    When I was in college, I took one course on QBasic which held a two week section on html. That is the extent institutionalized education. My actual degree was in Spanish and I’ve yet to speak one word in the professional sense.

    On the matter of having a CS degree, I would tend to disagree on the matter that this qualifies oneself to be a web developer. Since web development is a completely different realm of engineering. On the contrary, it would have been a bit more helpful to learn OO concepts from a professor, but like most of us, we learned it on our own either via a) the web, or b) a book. And with enough practice through trial and error and experience, you can become an expert in programming.

    However development still is more than programming. It even entails a bit of knowledge of english hierarchy. Understanding semantics. Practical usability and accessibility. Web marketing, and search engine optimization. Design patterns, and cross-browser development. There is just so much that I don’t see one university ever being able to cover.

    Web Development really is its own discipline and I beg to differ that a CS degree will equip a student with the knowledge they need.

    BTW, Jeff, when’tf are you going to fix this comment box so I can click on the Submit button. I’m on a 1024 resolution here, gimme a break.

    See http://www.dustindiaz.com/basement/img/j-croft-error.png

13. 013 // Jeff Croft // 11.16.2005 // 6:35 PM

    Also, if you value feedback so much I think you won’t get any further feedback (or opinions for that matter) from me. In addition I personally am happy about bug reports

    I’m fine with feedback on the site and bug reports, I’d just prefer it come to my privatley instead of derailing a discussion topic and I’d prefer it not be so pointed (you were clearly going for a how-dare-you-talk-about-standards-when-your-web-site-sucks angle).

    No big deal, though. It’s over. :)

    everyone can do a website that is immediately published

    Everyone can make a necklace out of string and beads, too, but no one hires them as jewelers and no one calls them “professionals.”

    I’m not talking about personal websites. If you’re making a personal website, then by all means, feel free to not know what you’re doing. It’s your site, do what you like. But if you’re representing a company as a professional hired to do a job, then you ought be better than bead necklaces.

    My (wild) guess would be that there are almost as many bad webdesigners as there are bad -insert profession here-, just that we notice it more.

    You might be right. Who knows.

14. 014 // Jeff Croft // 11.16.2005 // 6:37 PM

    BTW, Jeff, when’tf are you going to fix this comment box so I can click on the Submit button. I’m on a 1024 resolution here, gimme a break.

    Man, I wasn’t informed it was publicly-pick-on-jeff’s-website day! :)

    I’m sorry about that. I know it’s an issue. I’ll fix it when I can. I don’t get as much time to work on my personal site as I’d like these days.

15. 015 // Nathan Smith // 11.16.2005 // 7:19 PM

    I agree with what Jeff said. I went to Washington State University, which has a solid looking website: (www.WSU.edu) but is ridden with tables, lacks a Doctype, etc. I thought maybe they were finally coming around when I saw “Accessibility” on the front page, but that just refers to how the campus has ramps. ;)

    I agree, that if we’re going to keep things like Disney UK from happening, and really start making foward progress, the solutions need to be implimented at the institutional level. The best way to kill a weed is at the root. If you just snip off the leaves, the weed comes back pretty quickly.

16. 016 // Tyson Rosage // 11.16.2005 // 7:29 PM

    Wow, what a very interesting topic to bring up. This has been bothering me for a long since taking a few CS classes at my college, which I attend currently. I attend Western Washington University where teaching anything remotely standards based is non-existent.

    But I think one of the main reasons why many schools don’t bother teaching a curriculum like this is because either the staff is clueless themselves or they think it’s too time consuming and don’t feel there is enough class time to cover all the material. I ran into that in my web design classes. I was asking my professor why he didn’t cover more of the importance of a CSS layout and the use of standards. He basically told me it was too much material to cover in the time that was given. I guess I can see if my University were on a semester system this might be more feasible but that shouldn’t be an excuse. I think the pivotal moment for me that made me realize it was a serious problem was when I walked through main central part of campus and there I saw kiosk that read: “Learn Dreamweaver: web design for the 20th Century”. This kiosk was advertising for a tutorial session that the Student Technology Center was putting on. Granted it wasn’t FrontPage they were teaching (although there are sessions and kiosks for that too), but wait, wasn’t the 20th century last century? Since I started working as the web designer for the Associated Students at WWU I’ve been very lucky to have a been paired up with a co-worker that is coming from a same design and web standards background as myself. I’m really afraid to say that in today’s situation, learning the use of standards and even design theory for web is really up to the individual to learn for him/herself in most cases.

    The one semi-solution my co-worker and I have seriously considered doing is actually building a curriculum for a web standards and standards based design class. This actually something our University offeres that could get us credit as well. We’re still looking into it but even teaching some of these classes I think would be a possiblity. I’m really glad you brought this up Jeff, the Universities and other higher education institutions really need to get on top of this. It’s making the web really unhealthy.

17. 017 // Steve Williams // 11.16.2005 // 7:48 PM

    Hi Jeff,

    You quote so many disciplines (and rightly so) that I feel any higher ed course is only going to be able to cover them superficially, which is probably better than not at all - but I’m not sure by how much? Probably little better than giving out a list of topics students ought to read beyond the actual lesson content.

    Like many professions, what separates the few from the many is the quality of mentoring they receive, the experiences they gain and the desire to continue learning beyond their formal education.

    The internet is one of the fastest moving industries with respect to change, and it would seem many ‘web professionals’ aren’t so willing to hang up their hard-earned skills that are, like it or not, outdated. Until browsers choke on nested tables or poorly formed HTML/CSS, they’re not likely to change, only retire ;-)

    BTW, you asked what kind of ed people have - I studied computer science to ‘A’ Level (UK) and mechanical engineering to degree level B.Eng (Hons).

18. 018 // Andrea // 11.16.2005 // 9 PM

    I am the Web Manager for a university, and I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about how the web fits in to the university infastructure. Lately I have been arguing that the web is it’s own discipline and should probably be it’s own department, rather than folded under the IT or PR departments.

    I wonder if this wouldn’t be the best way to deal with teaching web development— have it be it’s own department, so that students could major in web development without majoring in computer science or graphic design. This would allow courses to be taught in all the disciplines you mention from the web angle specifically.

    I know that is a bit of a pipe dream at the moment. At my institution, the web gets the shaft in both computer science and graphics design courses. I think the reason for this is that it is not the specialty of any of the profs in those departments. They all see the web as something that has been recently tacked on to their disciplines.

    The web is new enough, and it takes long enough to get a PhD and and then a job, that we’re really only starting to get to the point where profs that focus specifically on the web are getting jobs. Maybe this means things will improve, as long as some folks with that interest go into teaching.

19. 019 // Elliot Swan // 11.16.2005 // 10:03 PM

    The internet is changing constantly, and so any web-related class one takes is going to be quickly outdated. Right now at most places the only option seems to be taking something such as graphic design and teaching yourself how it fits in with the web.

    I’m guessing for a university to be constantly redoing multiple courses will cost them tons of money, which is probably a pretty good reason for them not to do it. One option though that might be cheaper for universities yet still benefitial for web developers would be to offer a course like “Web Theory” that could teach things like standards, current web philosophy, and give introductions to current languages, etc. That way students could specialize in something like graphic design or marketing, then take a “Web Theory” course to learn how the web works. Then when the web changes enough the university would only have to change one course, and developers could then take it again to make sure they’re keeping up with the times.

    Similar to Jeff’s idea of certifications.

20. 020 // Jesse // 11.16.2005 // 10:08 PM

    Andrea: i too am a web manager at a university and have been struggling with the same issue that the web needs to be apart of IT and PR but not controlled by either. I think one of the problems is IT just brushes off the unique problems of web development and fails to grasp the fact that while you are coding ‘making it work’ isn’t good enough. As for this post, I think another problem is that academics don’t take the web serious enough to warrant serious study in it — yet. I know there are some courses that look at web development and design but they are in Arts (go figure). I firmly believe web development resides in an environmental studies/psycology/computer science/engineering/english (or language of choice) education ;)

21. 021 // Jeff Croft // 11.16.2005 // 10:31 PM

    Andrea/Jesse…

    At K-State we are struggling with the same issue of PR vs. IT. We are currently collaborating with the PR side of the school, but are running into some control issues (I really shouldn’t go into any more detail than that here). Ultimately, the web team should be it’s won unit and should comprise people from various disciplines, including graphic design, IT, marketing, PR, news/media relations, copywriting, etc. The problem is how utterly impossible it would be to create this sort of a unit at a large University that is already so slio’d and decentralized. I think that would be great, but I have no idea how to make it happen logistically, especially given how incredibly low we sit on the political totem pole.

    And I agree, too, that this is the sort of approach that should be taken in the classroom. Perhaps not every school can do this right now, but certainly some cuting edge schools with large budgets could design a “web” degree program and bring in qualified candidates from various disciplines. If any University wants to go for it, I’ll be happy to consult for them on developing the curriculum. :)

22. 022 // Andrea // 11.16.2005 // 11:08 PM

    Ha! Yeah, I’ll consult too! Since the curriculum is bound to change so rapidly, this could keep us in work for a while…

    On a more serious note, I agree that courses would need to be updated frequently, but this is true for all courses (or at least should be). My husband is a biology prof and makes a point of keeping up with what is happening in his field and incorporating it into his courses. This same thing would have to happen in web-related courses, too. But to me, that’s part of your job if you’re a prof. I think not many profs claim the web as their field, though, so they keep up on other things.

23. 023 // Nathan Smith // 11.17.2005 // 2:42 AM

    If you need someone to get a little preachy about web curriculum, fly me out there, and I’ll throw some CSS books around, and act all bothered. Seriously though, I think some of the web-savvy individuals out there could / should team up and start developing a marketed curriculum package to sell to universities. Heck, the books are already written. It’s just a matter of sitting the big-wigs down and getting them to understand why web standards are important. If anyone knows how to do that, you’ll be rich. ;)

24. 024 // Rather not say // 11.17.2005 // 9:25 AM

    At K-State we are struggling with the same issue of PR vs. IT. We are currently collaborating with the PR side of the school, but are running into some control issues (I really shouldn’t go into any more detail than that here). Ultimately, the web team should be it’s won unit and should comprise people from various disciplines, including graphic design, IT, marketing, PR, news/media relations, copywriting, etc. The problem is how utterly impossible it would be to create this sort of a unit at a large University that is already so slio’d and decentralized. I think that would be great, but I have no idea how to make it happen logistically, especially given how incredibly low we sit on the political totem pole. Wow, I work in the IT Web group of a very large University and I have to say that we are in the middle of the exact same problem right now. Let me know if you resolve anything. Also, I understand the requirement that Web pros know XHTML and CSS, but XSLT? Where are you using that?

25. 025 // Troy Thompson // 11.17.2005 // 10:44 AM

    While the University of Kansas doesn’t have a specific web design learning track, the Industrial Design/Fine Arts track covers digital design quite well. The industrial design school gave me a great, wide-ranging background. It covered everything from architecture to visual basic. I only wish more emphasis was placed on typography. Even if something isn’t part of the learning track, electives enable someone to explore the different areas you mentioned.

26. 026 // J.D. // 11.17.2005 // 10:51 AM

    Been lurking for awile, but decided to poke my head out here. I totally agree Jeff. Back when I was getting started with web development, there were no courses I could take really. I was thrust into learning and I’ve been fortunate to be in a position that has allowed me to teach myself everything I know related to the field. I still have a lot to learn and I know that so I work to keep up with things. From what I hear from a majority of the other web developers where I work, they had similar experiences. Unfortunately, many of them have not kept an ear to the ground and have no clue what web standards are. They repeatedly use old techniques or design solely for IE and I don’t see this changing without a stong push to offer classes or seminars or anything to help them along. I think now-a-days things are getting better in the universities, but they really do need to start offering some sort of web design/development major, which will prepare people better and intice them to work to keep their skills sharp.

27. 027 // Jeff Croft // 11.17.2005 // 11:20 AM

    Rather not say…

    We use XSLT in a few places, but notably in our portal implementation. I suppose there’s no need to know it if you’re not using it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if most of us are using it within a couple of years…

28. 028 // Matt Heerema // 11.17.2005 // 11:21 AM

    I’ve worked for Iowa State University for about 6 years now (as a student, and then after graduation). The only Web courses I’ve seen offered here are how to design things in photoshop or fireworks, and then use it’s native export to html funciontality to “build a web page”. Terrible.

    We have to untrian, and then retrain all of our new Web developer hires, especially if they come out of our university.

    We have, with a minimal degree of success offered non-credit classes and seminars in “real” Web design, but they aren’t really well advertised and don’t seem to be very highly supported by any department.

29. 029 // Peter // 11.17.2005 // 12:38 PM

    Hey Jeff, my first comment but it was so fitting to what I was just talking about a few days ago with my new employer I couldn’t resist.I graduated from RIT here in NY a year and a half ago with a BS in Information Technology. They are probably one of the few, and first, schools to offer such a diverse IT program - case and point - my two concentrations were in web and media development. Their core courses teach you everything from hardware to networking to sys admin, while sprinkling in courses in design, programming, and even usability and heuristics straight outa the mouth of Nielson. That said, it was the biggest waste of about 80 thousand dollars in my life. Why? They had no clue about anything current. They’re still teaching visual basic instead of Java, .Net is a foreign concept to them that, despite a signed letter from over 2 thousand students and faculty, they refuse to teach. In none of my courses were standards of XHTML ever even mentioned. The only web programming language we were ever taught was JavaScript and even then, theres only one course on it. The primary language was Perl. CSS, at the time of the course, was an afterthought and used only to manipulate typography. Page layouts were done in WYSIWYG editors like Dreamweaver, and handcoding was considered elitist. Absolutely nothing I learned in my 4 years there, except maybe the usability (You can’t really go wrong with Jakob) I use. I taught myself everything and merely used what they taught me as reference, as a foundation to build on. I taught myself PHP, ASP, CSS, XHTML, I adopted the standards movement about a year and a half ago. I did it myself because I dont think anyone else really can. The problem is, and this harks strikingly back to an article Mike Rundle posted about a year ago, about the definition of a ‘web designer’. A web designer 10 years ago needed to know HTML and how to make a drop shadow in Photoshop 4. Now? Now we are expected to know over a half dozen scripting languages, have a solid understanding of design and color theory, be able to work with databases and write queries, and function adequately in more software applications than I care to count. We are required to be a conglomeration of ‘whatever needs to be done’ and, as such, are the jack-of-all-trades and master of none. I think it’s the nature of the beast and I think it will always be like that. Ten years from now Ruby on Rails, Ajax, XML and XSLT, Web Services, and so on will just be more notches on the belt, and I’m sure there will be more trailing behind them. In the end I think all a degree does is prove that you’re capable of learning, meeting deadlines, and working in a linear, organized (see: work) environment. Though for what its worth, certifications from the W3C is something I’ve wanted to see for ages.I think it’s not far away, but I’ll keep my fingers crossed. Oh, and great site Jeff, don’t let the haters bring you down. Cheers-

30. 030 // Jeff Croft // 11.17.2005 // 1:27 PM

    Great post, Peter.

    I’ve talked a bit here in the past about how the definition of a “web designer” has gotten so much more complicated than it used to be, and about the fact that I don’t really believe any one person can be a “web team” any more. I believe you have to have a team of people that specialize in different areas.

    Still, each area of specialization (visual design, copywriting, programming, etc.) is constantly changing and needs to be taught using the most modern methods — and students should learn how to keep their skills sharp, as well.

    I am still thinking that the idea way for a higher ed institution to teach our profression is for them to have a “Web Design” major, and allow the student to choose an emphasis. The core curriculum (say, the first two or three years) would be the same for all of the specialties, but there would be additional coursework (the last year or two) that was much more specific to the student’s emphasis.

31. 031 // Jeff Croft // 11.17.2005 // 1:34 PM

    On a more serious note, I agree that courses would need to be updated frequently, but this is true for all courses (or at least should be). My husband is a biology prof and makes a point of keeping up with what is happening in his field and incorporating it into his courses. This same thing would have to happen in web-related courses, too. But to me, that’s part of your job if you’re a prof.

    I agree completely, but my experience has been that far too many professors aren’t like your husband and don’t keep their courses updated. I know profs who are teaching from the exact same lesson plans they had 15 years ago. It’s very sad, but probably unavoidable (there will always be some people like this, and since Universities usually suck at firing people (that aren’t head coaches of major sports teams), they stick around forever).

32. 032 // Dustin Diaz // 11.17.2005 // 1:40 PM

    Man, I wasn’t informed it was publicly-pick-on-jeff’s-website day! :) OoooOO, ooOOh! Jeff has a big nose! Ok, I just had to get that in there..

33. 033 // Jeremy Flint // 11.18.2005 // 11:38 AM

    I studied Graphic Design and Photography, earning a BFA with emphasis in both from Mississippi State University.

    There were no web design classes when I was in school (1996-2000). The closest thing was a multimedia class that taught director more as a primer for the animation classes that were offered.

    I already knew HTML, even worked two seperate jobs while in college maintaining sites. I was able to combine the knowledge from my graphic design courses with my HTML skills and create web sites.

    Now, some schools have web design classes, but they are just taught by the same professors teaching print design and usually involve heavy use of the Dreamweaver WYSIWYG or Flash.

34. 034 // dustin fluke // 11.18.2005 // 5:05 PM

    I’m taking the Bachelors of Web Development at Baker College (www.baker.edu). I’m taking programming courses, courses on Apache, PHP, some CGI, systems analyst, etc. It’s nothing like what should be offered. Of course the classes are getting better, but who needs C++ to do front/back end web design? I suppose I prefer the flavors of PHP, MySQL, and not .asp, .jsp, etc. I’m essentially getting a degree in programming. A few more credits and I’ll have a degree in Computer Inforamation Science. I agree with Jeff in that there aren’t many courses out there that really meet the needs of today’s designer. I’d love a course in CSS, but that’s not a programming language. I’ll have to settle for Java, C++, and Visual Basic instead.

35. 035 // Jeff Croft // 11.18.2005 // 5:19 PM

    Dustin…

    It sounds like what you are getting is better than some, but definitely still not ideal. I think it’s appropriate for Web Dev tracks to teach ASP and JSP — I think both of these are still more common in a corporate environment than PHP (we use mostly JSP here at K-State, as well). Apache courses seem like something that would be more appropriate for a systems administrator track than a web development one, but I guess a good overview of Apache can help a web developer, too. Does anyone use CGI at all anymore? I mean really — talk about outdated. Java I can understand for a backend developer, but C++ is a bit extreme and Visual Basic is just out of date.

    It definitely sounds like your degree is more back-end focused. And that’s fine, if that’s what you want — but who is teaching the front-end stuff?!

36. 036 // Jacques Jurgens // 11.19.2005 // 9:25 AM

    I have to give some credit to the University of Pretoria in South Africa. The degree I studied, Bachelor of Information Science Specializing in Multimedia, offers just what a Web professional needs to have: a good all-round understanding of all aspects of Web development.It takes the multi-disciplinary approach you’re talking about:A full three-year Computer Science component (which is exactly the same as that which is offered to the Bachelor of Science Specializing in Computer Science candidates). This includes topics from Java, J2EE, .NET, C++, and Artificial Intelligence, to Software Engineering, Database Engineering, and Computer Graphics.Visual Communication, from basic design principles to semiotics in films, advertisements, etc.Visual Design (both paper and electronic media). This component covered topics ranging from information design to typography and even music videos.XHTML, CSS, JavaScript basics.XML, XSL/T, XSL Formatting Objects.Authoring tool and image editing software basics (including Macromedia Flash and Adobe Photoshop).Hypertext and hypermedia theory.Usability theory and practice (usability testing, GUI design, etc.).Copy-editing.Document Design (i.e. document structuring principles, most importantly the internal structure of the copy. Visual design played second fiddle here – which I think is good. Visual design courses often concentrate on how to make things look pretty, neglecting other important issues such as good typography – all too often text just flows into a design instead of the content and the message determining the design; the tail waggin’ the dog.)Game development (where you can choose to develop a game in any technology, from Flash to OpenGL, to DirectX.A language course of your choice (Afrikaans, English, French, German, Zulu, or many others).Business Management.As you can see it is quite a full course. It aims to give one a good, solid base to work from. It is not a spoon-feeding course, and sometimes they force one to learn cutting-edge technologies by oneself, but that’s what one needs to do in this field; that’s what all of us need to do to stay on top. They prepare one for that.I completed my degree and my Honors (which included a strong Adaptive Hypermedia component, Instructional Design (i.e. e-learning), and Human–Computer Interaction), and I am now busy with a Masters, specializing in Human–Computer Interaction, more specifically Accessibility.Of course, no course is perfect. They could improve many aspects of it. But I think there aren’t many courses that are as multi-disciplinary as this one :-).

37. 037 // Jeff Croft // 11.19.2005 // 11:03 AM

    Jacques-

    That certainly does sound like about as good a program as I’ve heard of! Thanks for the info!

38. 038 // Ryan Berg // 11.21.2005 // 7:21 AM

    In the Visual Communications program at KU, emphasis on web design is non-existent. Typography in various forms is pounded into our tired little brains, and I believe some graphics classes have dabbled in basic web design, but never getting any further than basic layouts in Photoshop.

    I believe the Junior level graphics class that I’m not in will be learning Dreamweaver basics (not HTML basics) in the coming weeks.I’m currently taking a non-major C++ course to become more familiar with code syntax, hoping to improve my PHP skills and actually understand Javascript.I feel the graphics professors almost shun web design due to its sloppy typography.Web design, and all the associated technology is too specific to be its own degree or emphasis. Learning solid design fundamentals that can be applied to many media is the best path for a young designer. But offering a class or two that begin to teach XHTML, CSS, maybe PHP and Javascript could go a long way in adding to design students’ skillsets.

39. 039 // Ryan Berg // 11.21.2005 // 7:22 AM

    …and as its use becomes more common, let’s throw Ruby in there too.

40. 040 // aim // 11.21.2005 // 10:32 AM

    I have a master’s degree in publications design from the university of baltimore, a unique interdisciplinary program that combines graphic design, writing, and a web production classes. One problem I had upon graduation is that I was very much a generalist and could not be placed into any one specific job category. It was hard to find employers that value this multi-disciplinary approach. I feel quite fortunate to have found one! On the other hand, I’ve always felt that the purpose of education is learning how to learn. This is certainly an industry where one must continue to learn. You can’t afford not to.

41. 041 // Nathan Pitman // 11.30.2005 // 3:30 AM

    I don’t have any formal training in ‘web design’ or ‘development’ but then I was at college over 8 years ago, so it’s not surprising. However, I think that the product design training I had has contributed well as it’s all based on user experience and the use of 3 dimensions, which translates quite well to websites which can have depth interactivity and dynacism.

    I also heard that it’s quite common for web designers to have a background in product design (for some strange reason). Apparently the guys that set up ‘deepend’ way back in the day both trained in product design.

    I’ll stop rambling now.

42. 042 // Jeff Goseland // 12.01.2005 // 10:32 PM

    I went to a 4 year University (yeah it might have taken a little longer but who is counting) and received a CIS degree. What did this school teach? COBOL was the main curriculum. I took Java and C# and some Unix, but the business deparment taught COBOL.
    I was hired after school and went to work for a large corporation with a very large customer base. Everything I’ve done on the job has been 100% unrelated to the technical knowledge that I learned while in school. What I learned in College was the ability to learn.
    Since being hired I was recently put on a very large high visibility project and we were given the treat of being taught a large base of web-centric technologies from a member of the W3C Advisory Board came and taught us (3 weeks full of 9 hour days) all about the wonders of HTML, XML, XSLT, XPath/Query, AJAX implementation, JavaScript, etc. and the standards and practices associated with each.
    Everything we learned was fantastic but it comes with a caveat. We could immediately throw out an entire class of standards. We knew everything we created on the web would follow these rules: would run on IE 6.0+ (no other versions)would have cookies availableIE would be run on an IBM based PC

    Fortunately (or otherwise based on what it has led to) we are in as controlled an environment as you could imagine. Our internal and external port requirements for Home Office associates and Suppliers/Vendors requires that you use these…it’s non-negotiable.

    So although we had all of this knowledge for the purpose of the project we were working on it didn’t make since from a deadline point of view to take the extra time to include the extra coding it could require. We also (to our dismay) have recently found out that our implementation of pure UTF-8 Character set for all 14 distinct languages our site is being dispersed to was in vain. We have to use native encodings for each language because the framework we reside in (and are being branded by) is not equipped to exist in the single character set world of Unicode. Now that I’ve rambled to get to some of the earlier mentioned points, I think one of the best things a school can do for you is to teach you good OOP methodology. Whether you are coding in PHP, JavaScript, C(based), .Net, Java the knowledge of the objects and methods you’re passing around, and what you can do with them can make moving into a new language or methodology a minor task, learning the syntax. As for the hard-to-define web skills such as XML and its associated tranformation methods(XSLT, XPath/Query….) I agree that it is very difficult to find a University with the faculty to make a valiant attempt at it, until the experts that innovate on the web on a day-to-day basis decide its time to organize (as mentioned earlier) we’ll have to rely on W3 Schools and free to websites with an avenue to learn these technologies.

    The web is so fantastically diverse in it’s use and implementation that defining a curriculum would need to be at a high enough level so that it is adaptable to the free web, commercial web and internal controlled environments. Most of what I have learned (and I’d gauge most others) has been from a crash-and-burn, google, ask a friend and code “borrowing” mentality. We have the privilege and stress of living in sort of a web-rennaissance and it will be up to our generation to define how the next will use and learn it.

43. 043 // Jan Brasna // 12.16.2005 // 1:35 AM

    “Then perhaps you can explain why 80% of employed web professionals DON’T know how to write valid XHTML, don’t know the ins and outs of CSS […], etc.”

    Because they just don’t care? They got paid for something they consider cool/good/whatever and have no need of some education or self-study.

    BTW I completely hear you on this topic, I left technical college last year and it looks like I’ll also abandon my present shelter, a design and arts college, because every single discipline (even multimedia design or media comunication) focuses solely on itself. This approach don’t have anything to offer me, unfortunately.

44. 044 // KuzaMom // 12.21.2005 // 10:09 AM

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